This is a country that is so against religion that it is forbidden to pray in school (except praying in Maori (karakia) which is considered “spiritual rather than “religious”… whaaa?) and our Prime Minister deliberately insults our Head of State by dressing inappropriately at formal dinners and bans the saying for grace in the presence of the Defender of the Faith on the grounds that we are indeed a secular country.
The Government’s roading agency has brought in spiritual leaders to bless projects 20 times in as many months.
…
In most cases the blessings were conducted by members of local iwi.
Total cost of the blessings was $4400 for koha, travel costs, and food.
Discuss.
November 19, 2006 at 4:39 pm |
Pretty amazing, really. Just goes to show that
1. People need some sort of spirituality
2. Maori spirituality is far less threatening to the gov’t than Christianity.
November 19, 2006 at 4:45 pm |
It shows that Maori “spirituality” turns a good profit and is written into legislation while Christianity – the largest religion in New Zealand – is blocked.
It’s also discrimination based on religion.
November 20, 2006 at 12:47 am |
When a Western government (by either its leader or the teaming hordes of faceless bureaucrats) emphasizes that it is “secular” it means that it is anti-Christian (and generally pretty strongly indicates a significant level of anti-Semitism too).
Religious stuff other than that of the Judeo-Christian belief set are tolerated/encouraged so as to undermine the culture’s prior Christian beliefs. It is often a part of pushing a fuzzy pantheism to set up the State filling the religious void.
November 20, 2006 at 1:55 pm |
Well it won’t work with me. Christianity and Judaism have been bemused spectators at the gravesides of countless arrogant despots and intellectual pigmies [who were giants in their own minds] who tried to eradicate faith and the faithful.
There is a family tree published somewhere of the descendants of an American 19 th C evangelist and that of his chief atheist mocker and protagonist. The pastor’s line was full of judges, doctors, professors, legislators, scientists and military leaders. The mocker’s line was replete with bankrupts, swindlers, criminals, suicides nnd a litany of social disaster.
Nietzsche “God is dead” ….. God could point out the obvious that “Nietzsche is dead ” but I think that be wasted on our current crop of ‘leaders’. They seem determined to head for an irrelevant footnote to history
November 20, 2006 at 3:21 pm |
Firstly I’m Maori and I’m not religious, but this has interested me enough to post.
I don’t see New Zealand (country) as being against religion, I see it as being respectful to other peoples religion as well as acknowledging the indigenious people of Aotearoa and ‘beliefs’ (not religion). Whether it’s secular or not, that’s pretty subjective.
Now the difference for me in ‘praying’ and ‘karakia’ is that praying is clearly religious, and karakia is not. Although to be fair, ‘karakia’ can be considered religious when Christian aspects are incorporated into it – which it can and in (lo and behold!) most parts does – but then that becomes known as ‘inoi’ which means ‘prayer’!
Thing is, most people don’t know the difference between ‘inoi’ and ‘karakia’ and so call it karakia whether or not it is. And that’s where I believe the misunderstanding is.
So here’s the a discussion point for me: the “praying in Maori” and “Maori spirituality” that is being referred to in this discussion, could easily be Christian beliefs which have been translated into Maori.
Therefore, learn up on ‘karakia’ and “Maori spirituality” (because you people are obviously a passionate bunch when it comes to the topic on hand) and then we’ll talk on whether this country is secular or not based on that.
I guess it’s too bad you guys don’t understand te reo Maori to make sure what you have all personally experienced as “Maori spirituality” to be indeed “Maori spirituality”. God forbid it to be Christianity instead. o_O
November 20, 2006 at 6:15 pm |
“In 2002, construction of Transit’s Hamilton to Auckland expressway was delayed because of a taniwha believed to live in a swamp in the path of the intended route.”
Taniwhas could come in very handy.
They could live whereever a big project needs to go.
I wonder if we will see a population explosion of taniwhas
November 21, 2006 at 10:48 am |
See, both our “Secular” and the USA’s “Freedom of Religion” were both meant to mean “Christian but nondemoninational”.
Both have been twisted.
November 21, 2006 at 10:49 am |
[...] From this thread: Nietzsche “God is dead” ….. God could point out the obvious that “Nietzsche is dead ” [...]
November 21, 2006 at 12:59 pm |
Thenes: Firstly, I’m Maori, and I am “religious”, Not Christian.
Thanks for your assumption that stupid whitey needs to git edukushun, but we’re good here, thanks.
Given the lengths and mental gymnastics you’ve just undergone to try and claim there is some separation between religious prayer and “spiritual” prayer, and as I’m already familiar with the claims you are making from long experience, – my mother has been teaching Maori for decades – and I reject your claims as spurious linguistic flim- flammery, please explain how a 6 year old is going to grasp the difference “nuance”, and not simply be programmed that Maori is acceptable, therefore “good” and Christianity is banned, therefore “bad”.
Please keep your reply to less than two paragraphs, as I can’t abide waffling, and have a really bad temper when people do it on my dime.
Feel free to respond to the issue of all New Zealand tax payers being bilked by one religious minority at any time.
If you are unsure of something – or if you’re assuming something – I suggest you ask questions, as this is the best way to find things out, rather than make those pesky assumptions which often turn out to be wrong. It will get you thrown out of bible class at the age of five, but you’ll be better informed and spend less time looking silly.
By the way, “Aoetearoa” is not a country, it is a geographic name for a collection of islands. We became a nation in 1840, and took the name New Zealand. Until then no single nation or country existed. It was put on all the maps, I’m sure you can still find it there.
November 30, 2006 at 1:21 pm |
Thanks Muray. I appreciate the time and effort you took to reply to my “waffling” and I’ll be sure to take your comments into consideration.
For example, I’ll keep this brief.
* In response to your question “please explain how a 6 year old is going to grasp the difference “nuance”, and not simply be programmed that Maori is acceptable, therefore “good” and Christianity is banned, therefore “bad”: I can’t help you there because I agree wholeheatedly.
* “I reject” that “stupid whitey” comment. I’m sorry you came to that conclusion. My only ‘assumption’ was that no one who previously posted could understand te reo, whether they be white, brown, black or yellow. I have yet to be corrected on that point. Feel free to do so.
If you were unsure – or if you were assuming – of who I was directing the comment to: Practice what you preached. No pun intended.
* Aotearoa/New Zealand comment: Superfluous to the discussion but thanks anyway.
- Thenes